tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post7585775259191823214..comments2024-02-25T05:24:24.948-05:00Comments on Beyond Easy: Let's Read Pierre: Books III & IVPatrick Rhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02410016566636603639noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post-49469108056406635562012-08-29T23:27:45.776-04:002012-08-29T23:27:45.776-04:00Johnathan: Cancel all your engagements and quit yo...<b>Johnathan:</b> Cancel all your engagements and quit your job. <i>You</i> have an obscure classic by an insane Romantic to read >:I<br /><br /><b>Seifker:</b> Yeah. It's like every child in any piece of literature written before, say, 1930 is portrayed as a gibbering invalid.<br /><br />....For some reason I'm reminded of the little princes in the <i>Richard III</i> film with Lawrence Olivier. As soon as the brat opened his mouth, I ground my teeth and grumbled for Richard to go ahead and have the twerps killed already.<br /><br />Guess that's really neither here nor there.<br /><br /><b>D.S.I.:</b> Jump in whenever you can!<br /><br /><b>Dustin:</b> Hmm. I guess when you're accustomed to such a privileged life, inconveniences and tiffs necessarily qualify as problems and arguments. Reading ahead, it looks like the stakes <i>do</i> get higher. Madame Glendinning has a vindictive streak and she means business.<br /><br /><i>What we've found is that Pierre's father had a thing for this dark and reserved french girl, and this is much to the instinctual chagrin of Mrs. Glendinning, clearly. Through discussion of the painting we've found Mrs. Glendinning somehow knows intuitively her husband's passions were directed toward something far more taboo, and thus romanticized, early on. Within the framework that the book lays out, first loves are the most significant, making Glendinning the consolation prize. Considering how much of Pierre's father she see's in her son, naturally watching the same scenario play out again, even though she's probably unaware of the details of it, has some psychological significance for her character, as she's shown some insecurities and we're reminded exhaustively about her hatred for the portrait. She would be essentially losing her husband to the same entity, twice. It wouldn't be unbelievable for Mrs. Glendinning to call the girl some sort of enchantress, siren, or witch.</i><br /><br />Astute! Again, yeah -- she's the one who has me worried. As the effective queen of Saddle Meadows, she can pretty much do to Isabel whatever she wants. If she finds out about her and thinks she's Pierre's mistress, she's gone. If she finds out she's Pierre's illegitimate sister, she's gone. And after her warning to Pierre, I wonder what she's capable and willing to do to him if he crosses her.<br /><br /><b>Mr. P:</b> I think it's a matter of taste. I like reading Melville <i>because</i> he goes on and on and on, and produces such lovely things as he does. I think, however, the taste might be an acquired one. I was going into this knowing that he was going to lay it on thick; going into it unprepared for Herman's blahblahblahblah must be sorta like going to a GWAR show and not being surprised when the fake blood gets sprayed on you. (It's late. My similes fail me. Apologies.)<br /><br />Even if it's a taste that doesn't suit your palate, I'd still suggest giving it another few chapters. I'm on book VII and the plot is gaining traction. Hopefully the book will obey some literary equivalent of Newton's law -- something that's this slow to accelerate should have a lot of momentum once it gets rolling.Patrick Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410016566636603639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post-24084798841630593592012-08-28T17:43:26.950-04:002012-08-28T17:43:26.950-04:00Throughout all this I'm reminded of Homer Simp...Throughout all this I'm reminded of Homer Simpson telling Ricky Gervais "You take too long to say nothing." While I love terse narration, especially in noir-type stories where it is essential for the mood, I'm not hostile to lengthy tomes either. I've read several Stephen King books that go on for hundreds of pages. But the difference there is there King is following Vonnegut's rule about everything either moving the plot forward or revealing something about the characters.<br /><br />Here, Melville just keeps stalling as he uses 9 words when 4 will do, and honestly I'm not too enamored with overly done metaphors. A good metaphor/simile can bring a brief halt to the narrative flow in a positive way, shaking things up and adding dimensions to the scene without bringing things to a standstill. But Melville overdoes it. Two books and what do we get? He reads a letter, thinks about a couple past events, and that's pretty much it. Sure his reaction to the letter and inner conflict is important, but his train of thought is an action itself, and dragging it out with too much prose is no different than dragging out the description of a physical action the same way. It brings the story to a halt.<br /><br />As for the plot, not much to say yet because we've only gotten the set-up. Let's see where it goes from here.Philip Pangrachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117360002501230429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post-41884290337971616822012-08-28T08:25:43.619-04:002012-08-28T08:25:43.619-04:00What we've found is that Pierre's father h...What we've found is that Pierre's father had a thing for this dark and reserved french girl, and this is much to the instinctual chagrin of Mrs. Glendinning, clearly. Through discussion of the painting we've found Mrs. Glendinning somehow knows intuitively her husband's passions were directed toward something far more taboo, and thus romanticized, early on. Within the framework that the book lays out, first loves are the most significant, making Glendinning the consolation prize. Considering how much of Pierre's father she see's in her son, naturally watching the same scenario play out again, even though she's probably unaware of the details of it, has some psychological significance for her character, as she's shown some insecurities and we're reminded exhaustively about her hatred for the portrait. She would be essentially losing her husband to the same entity, twice. It wouldn't be unbelievable for Mrs. Glendinning to call the girl some sort of enchantress, siren, or witch.<br /><br />Still a lot of emphasis is placed on points that could be wrapped up rather quickly. Melville's constant re-emphasis of plot markings that are rather clear after a paragraph are hard to justify when much of the material is simply repeated, again, and again, with slightly different words and within different frames. I know you preempted this criticism of mine, but even in less minimalist works I think it is a good idea to lay out new ground work in the tangents, such as in some of DFW's work. But we hardly see any forward progress when Melville chooses to poeticize, and so we're forced to sink into and glide with the words. This is clearly MY problem. I haven't thus far found the poetics compelling enough to get lost in them, and so it becomes difficult. But this is up to preference, and without these sections, assuming they continue throughout the book, the novel would be much shorter. It'd be a huge chore to try promote this criticism into objectivity, so I'm content just leaving it where it is. I wish I were more optimistic, in general. Not though. There really isn't any golden standard to which I compare everything to, so I promise I haven't singled out Melville to pick on. More and more, of late, I do this with everything. Never, in elected stuff, am I just in it for the ride.Dustin Angevinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12704309530233011580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post-8490371034416162042012-08-28T08:25:12.107-04:002012-08-28T08:25:12.107-04:00Can't say I empathize with Pierre's choice...Can't say I empathize with Pierre's choice of obsessions. Like Pierre, I found I had a half sister, rather abruptly, but never felt anything other than indifference, maybe a little annoyance at the obligation. But this was when I was eighteen, so right at the same age. Their world is so insular... They're open with each other, but only on the surface. Disputes hardly seem anything but less playful in tone, and everything else seems like flirtation. Melville frames Pierre's misdirection toward his mother as though the consequences would be dire, but I wonder how that would play out? <br /><br />"Sister, that dark girl's face is so... PECULIAR."<br /><br />"What mean you, Pierre?"<br /><br />"Her expression there, as though she knew of me, as though she were gasping to speak some familiar something to me, as though her heavy breathing there was the held back anxiousnesses of an innocent restrained. What WAS THAT FACE, sister?"<br /><br />What then? Would she throw a tantrum because her son felt intrigued by an outlier like that? Would the default assumption be the girl was simply a wretch trying to lean against the nobility? Would it be that Pierre's only reason for his fascination would be of a sexual nature? Tragically he told her nothing. Brushed aside her inquiries. This severely compounds the problem for later on, if this all comes to light. And why would he not trust his mother enough to present to her the letter? I'm betting the reason is he'd just expect her to forbid him from seeing the girl. But more importantly, it would tarnish his father's reputation even further. And destroy his mother's frail contentedness. A lot of discussion was placed on his father's legacy, but I don't recall much of it was directed toward Mrs. Glendinning's stability.Dustin Angevinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12704309530233011580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post-81587151441518975852012-08-27T20:45:13.886-04:002012-08-27T20:45:13.886-04:00Annoyed I missed the start of this. I'll be jo...Annoyed I missed the start of this. I'll be joining in as soon as I can find the time to get reading, I'm really keen to plumb some of Melville's lesser known worksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post-41910164421909121842012-08-27T13:24:04.647-04:002012-08-27T13:24:04.647-04:00I'm enjoying things so far. The overly flower...I'm enjoying things so far. The overly flowery and poetic way everyone speaks doesn't bother me, but when little Pierre does it, it's extremely entertaining to me, for whatever reason: "...but don't tell me again that once upon a time I was not little Pierre at all, and yet my father was alive. Go on, aunt, -- do, do!"siefkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01909748477014438436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8972120889629675714.post-45676890895870658792012-08-27T03:17:56.255-04:002012-08-27T03:17:56.255-04:00Ugh, I feel the need to comment since nobody's...Ugh, I feel the need to comment since nobody's posted anything yet, despite having nothing to contribute. I'm slightly behind, hopefully I'll finish book IV tomorrow. I'll try to write my thoughts then.Johnathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15611162434868647463noreply@blogger.com